"Jesus is in Team Islam as Well” - Former Anti-Islam Politician Faced Anti-Islam Questions!
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What would you say to a person who says that your Prophet plagiarized from the Old Testament and the New Testament and came up with the Quran? Is Sharia really the same thing that most people think of? If not, what is Sharia? Because I really, really didn't want to become a Muslim. I really didn't want. Even after I saw all the arguments, all the facts, I still didn't want to become a Muslim. But in the end, I ended up becoming a Muslim. When I look at Christianity, I always see it as a book with a lot of truth, but not the complete truth. Some people ask me, "Why do you left the team of Jesus?" And I told them, well, I didn't left the team of Jesus. Jesus is in our team as well.
Assalamu alaikum Brother Joram, thank you for accepting our invitation again. Our first interview with you had a huge viral impact with more than 4 million views now. Were you expecting such an interest, or were you surprised? Yeah, I was surprised. I didn't expect it to go viral. And 4 million views is of course a lot, so. But Alhamdulillah it's a good thing, I think, because perhaps it helped spreading the message, explain a little bit of why I converted, and especially what Islam is in a very basic way, because of course, I'm not a scholar, but perhaps it helped.
Can you share with us some of the feedback you received, either positive or negative, and which one was the most interesting for you? Well, there were like a dozen people who said, "Well, this was for me, this was the last push." So they took Shahadah. Yeah. So there are a few people that became Muslim, and not because of our interview, of course, but it helped because they literally said that was the last push. So yeah, that's I think a remarkable thing. And of course, there was some negative feedback as well. But that's normal, I think. But the most remarkable feedback came from a guy who was a Buddhist. It was very funny.
And he told me, "Well, I never looked into religion." He said, "I'm a Buddhist." And when you look at the core concepts of Buddhism, of course, in a way it's atheistic. Because goal, so to say, of Buddhism is to go to Nirvana, and that means you disappear in a way. And he said, "Well, I always found it, like, spiritual atheism." And of course, that's what he said. But he said, "That was the first time that I thought, well, perhaps there is something else, perhaps there is a Creator." And that was... And he was looking into... And he is one of the guys who took Shahada in the end. So it was very funny to hear from, in the Dutch context as very agnostic, very secular.
It has, let's say a historical Christian background. And then there's a Buddhist guy in the Netherlands who becomes a Muslim. Now let me ask some questions that are frequently asked by disbelievers. What would you say to a person who says that your Prophet plagiarized from the Old Testament and the New Testament and came up with the Quran? Yeah. No, that's really impossible. Of course, I looked into that argument as well, especially when I was like Islam-critic. But when you look at the the Quran, and the way it is constructed, it's almost impossible for someone, especially when you don't have a computer, to make sure that there is, like, unity in it.
And there is a lot of unity whether people believe it or not. Even very skeptic people from the Western tradition, even the Eastern tradition. And I'm not talking about Muslim countries. They say that it is a remarkable book. So for someone who didn't have a computer, who was illiterate in a way, it is impossible to create something like that. If He did, it is a miracle on its own. But when it comes to people who say He copied stuff like that, well, the New Testament, for example, wasn't there yet. There was no New Testament, it wasn't translated into Arabic. And if he really was illiterate, how could he know?
And if there were perhaps 2 or 3 people telling him some stories about Christianity? There is so much deep theological stuff in the Quran related to Christianity. That's impossible because, again, there was no New Testament then, so he couldn't copy it at all. It was impossible. I always see, like, when I look at Christianity, I always see it as a book with a lot of truth, but not the complete truth. So when I look at, for example, the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Quran, and I put it next to it, it's like a puzzle. So where I miss some things, and things are a little bit changed in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
And when Islam came with the Quran, it corrected the first two revelations, so to say. So it completed my religion. And it's of course, it's in the Quran itself. "Today I completed your religion." But also when you look at it from a theological perspective, even from Christianity, as an ex-Christian, of course, I think that counts. So that's true. And the part of Jesus, Isa (as) he is, of course, in Christianity, a very core person. He is almost the central figure. But he is not absent in Islam. Because some people ask me, "Why do you left the team of Jesus?" It was really a question. And I told them, "Well, I didn't left the team of Jesus.
Jesus is in our team as well." So but it's, for a lot of Christians, it's very hard to accept that after Jesus there was someone else. And if people do accept that, then it's very easy for them to become Muslim. They also wonder about Sharia. Generally, they only think of some really harsh punishments, like the ones they see in the media. Is Sharia really the same thing that most people think of? If not, what is Sharia? Well, of course I'm not a scholar, but what I know, well... When I read and learned about Sharia. They say, "Well, it's a doctrine of religious duties." And it's very broad. It has to do with clothing, it has to do with food. It has to do with praying.
It has to do with trade. It has to do with everything and of course, there's this small part that has to do with criminal justice as well. But in the West, and it has to do with the propaganda from way back, like we talked about it, in the 16th and 17th century. But up till this day people are saying, "Well, Sharia is this, that." No, that's not Sharia. It's very, very small part of Sharia. But that is because Islam is a holistic concept. So it doesn't talk only about the way of the heart. It's a practical religion. It really fits life here on earth in the dunya. So what it means is that we have to talk about all these aspects, all these segments of the dunya as well.
And criminal justice is a part of it. And a lot of people in the West often say to me, "Well, they don't really punish people." We have people here who committed rape, for example. They only get one year in prison. One year. And I can imagine, as a father, if my daughter was raped, I don't want this guy to be punished one year. I want a severe punishment, a real punishment. And when I look at other systems, of course, there are stronger punishments. But that's not what Sharia is about, and again, you have this concept of Shubuhat, I think, so before someone really is punished in that way, there are so many factors, so many restrictions, that it's almost impossible.
So most of the time it's only to make sure that people understand this is a very big offensive thing that you are about to do or that you did. But in the West, they don't see it like that because they don't want to see Islam for what it is most of the time, especially people who do know Islam in the core, but they really don't want to be a Muslim. So they take these arguments and they twist it a little bit, and they make it seem very scary and stuff like that. But when you look at the Ottoman Empire for example, or apostasy, because that's something that a lot of people talk about, right? When you're an apostate, you get killed, et cetera.
When you compare that, for example, to America before it became the United States, there have been a lot of people who were killed there because they left their religion, because the church there or the state there said, "You're not a real Christian or we're doubting." Look at the Inquisition in Europe. They killed so many people, thousands and thousands of people. And when you compare this, for example, to the Ottoman Empire, in over the last 400 years of the Ottoman Empire, only three people were punished that way. Three. And when you compare that to the West, where thousands and thousands... But still the idea is Islam is scary and they kill everybody. And the West is sweet and nice.
No, that's not the real deal. That's not factual. It's not historical. But that has to do with propaganda, so... But that's another topic, I think. They also ask, "Why do we need laws from God to be ruled justly? Can't we find what is right and what is wrong on our own?" They also ask, "Why do we need laws from God to be ruled justly? Can't we find what is right and what is wrong on our own?" Yeah, it's almost a philosophical question. No, I don't think people can do that because people are very changeable.
And when you look at the history, and of course, I'm a Western guy, and I live in the West, when I look at the history of the West, the times that people thought they could do without a deity, without God, Allah, it didn't end up very well. When you look at, for example, the DDR, Eastern Germany, or when you look at the Soviet Union, for example, Russia. They had communism, and in communism the state religion was atheism. And there have been a lot of Ulama (scholars) who were killed there. Because of the fact that they were Muslim, and they were preaching religion and the belief in one God. They were killed, slaughtered in a horrible way. But also Christian monks.
There were a lot of people really killed. So if people say, "Well, religion always causes violence," well, look at the Soviet Union. They were explicitly not religious and they committed horrible crimes. Over 20 million of their own people were killed, let alone the other people. Even in Albania, and it used to be a Muslim country, of course, when they were under the communist Enver Hoxha, he killed a lot of people. In China, North Korea. There are there are so many contexts. And of course, sometimes things change, fortunately. But when you look at the idea of people ruling their selves without the guidance of God, that doesn't end up well.
Well, even when you look at the Second World War, when you look at Nazi Germany from 1939 till 1945. He ruled practically the continent of Europe, but there were so many people killed. There were even disabled people who were slaughtered in the most horrible ways. And they made their manmade rules. Well, that didn't end up very well for those people. So I think that the only security for mankind to be guided in the correct way, so that we can live in peace among each other, is the guidance of Allah, of God. Many non-Muslims in the West think that Islam restricts freedom, because we know that they are known for, and proud of a free lifestyle. Do you think this can bring happiness to humanity?
Well, I think Islam is freedom, because nobody is completely free. You're always a slave of something, slave of your money, or a slave of women, or a slave of good clothes, or a slave of whatever. Then at least be a slave of the truth. So... Real freedom. What is freedom? The fact that you can be drunk or that you can use drugs, or that you can commit zina or whatever. That's not real freedom. In the end, you will not end up happy. So... And that's like, also with little children. If I ask my child, what do you want to eat? She says candy. If I would give her candy all day, she would be sick and in the end, perhaps she will die.
Because she doesn't get any vitamins, she doesn't have normal vegetables, or proteins or whatever. So the fact that it seems fun doesn't mean that it is fun, and it doesn't mean that it will help you on the long run. So I think if you are a Muslim, just try to practice Islam. And I know a lot of people say, "When you are a Muslim, you cannot do this, that." You can do almost everything except for a few things. And the things that you are not allowed to do have to do with your well being. They say, "Don't drink alcohol, don't use drugs, don't do that." And it has a reason. It's not to bully you or to make you feel bad. No, it's to help you to make sure that you are a happy person.
If you're a Muslim, or even if you're not Muslim, if you're constantly using drugs or you're using other things like alcohol, or you're only going out, date, stuff, clubbing, whatever. Most of them, most of these people end up miserable if they are alone, because in the end, they are looking for a man or a woman and they want to have children. They want to marry. That's what most people want. But all these things are not going to help you create sustainable relations where happiness is the central focus point. Because in the end, I think we have, want to be what they call "The People of Sa'ada", right? You want to be happy, you want to be near to the Creator.
The only way that will bring you to that point is Islam. So yeah, I think people have to reconsider what real freedom is. The fact that that there are so many pop stars in history that were very rich, they had a lot of beautiful men or beautiful women. And they used drugs, they used alcohol. They did... A lot of those people committed suicide. And that's not because all these things were making them happy. Otherwise they would still be here. And of course, that doesn't count for everybody. But those people have everything in the extreme, and that's what a lot of people think, "If I have extreme freedom, I will do this, this." No, you won't.
And if you do, you won't end up the way you want to. So Islam is a balanced system, and it allows you to do almost everything except for the things that will make you miserable in the end. So just follow the instructions, so to say, and it will make you a happier person. And this instruction is called Islam. I have one last request. More than 4 million people watched your first video with us on YouTube, and nearly as many watched you on Instagram. Among those people, maybe thousands of them were non-Muslims. I want you to look directly at the camera and talk to them with a few words. They may have some hesitations about embracing Islam. What would you like to say to them? Briefly, please.
Why Islam? Why they shouldn't hesitate, looking directly at the camera. For all the people who are not Muslim yet, who are hesitating, whether you're agnostic, or atheist, or Christian, or Buddhist, or Hindu or whatever, it doesn't matter. I wish for all these people, for you at home as well of course, Islam. And not because I think you're a bad person or whatever. And I think that goes for most of the Muslims. It's not that Muslims think you're a bad person if they want to convey Islam to you. But only, like I said during the interview, Islam really gave me peace of heart and peace of mind. And a lot of people think, well, it's very hard to become a Muslim.
I have to pray five times, I cannot do this or that. I know from experience that it's not that hard. In the end, it made me happier. And if you really are dedicated and if you really follow the truth and if this is really what you believe, things go very easy. So, I would suggest and advise people to look into Islam. Study it objectively. Don't look at what the Muslims do. Look at what the ultimate teacher Muhammed, peace and blessings be upon him, did. And let Him, in a way, convince you of the truth of Islam. So how will Islam conquer the hearts of people in the world? What do you think is the way to achieve this? I think that's Truth, with a capital T. I don't think we have to do so much.
The only thing we have to do is convey the message. And I always think, and that's what we do here as well in our coming museum in the end, because it's the truth appeals to people. If something is true, you're attracted to this truth. That's what happened to me as well because I really, really didn't want to become a Muslim. I really didn't want. Even after I saw all the arguments, all the facts, I still didn't want to become a Muslim. But in the end, I ended up becoming a Muslim. Why didn't you want? It was like...
Like I said in the beginning, after I picked up the Quran and when it fell from the closet and it said, in Surah 22, this is Ayat 46, and it says "It's not the eyes that are blind, but the hearts." And that was really what my problem was. And I think that's a problem for a lot of people in the West, because it's not the problem of the eyes. You can see the arguments if you really want to see the arguments, if you want to see the facts, just look it up. They're there in front of you. So there's nothing wrong with your eyes. You're not blind, but you don't want to. And that's something else. It's a problem of the heart.
And it could be because you don't want to accept the fact that there is a Creator, or you just don't want to be a Muslim or whatever. It could be a lot of arguments, but it's not a problem of the mind, it's not... Rationally, Islam is very easy. It's more, are you really, really down? Are you really open to receive the message? So that's a problem of the heart. Nowadays people mostly think that Muslims are defeated and left behind. If Islam is the truth, why is that the case? If you see Islam, for example, as the sun that's up there shining, being beautiful, you cannot touch it, it's untouchable.
And if we as Muslims are living in a basement and we can say, "Where is Islam, where is Islam, we cannot see Islam," it's because we are in the basement. We should get out of the basement, walk into the garden, look up, and then we see Islam. And that goes for the other people as well. If it's a cloudy day because they have this cloudy perception, they don't see, it doesn't mean that there is no Islam. The Creator is there, Islam is there. It's up there. It's untouchable. It's beautiful. It doesn't matter what you say or do, it's still there. So Islam has never been defeated. It's there. And Muslims don't always live like Muslims. That's our responsibility.
I think if we did live like Muslims, you would still be on top, because in the end, you were once, of course, like, the ruling nation of the world, you taught a lot of people, you spread the truth. But in the end, people start arguing, stopped being real Muslims in a way. And then of course, that's how the world works. Then someone else comes. And so it's up to ourselves if we don't see Islam for what it is and we don't act upon it, then we can't complain. But that's our own responsibility, because I don't ever... I never saw, even when I was a very anti-Muslim politician. I never saw Islam as something to pity.
I saw it as a danger back then, but I still respected it in a way because of the fact that I saw it as a danger. But nowadays I see it as the truth, the ultimate Truth with a capital T, and it's the most beautiful thing. So you don't have to walk away or shy away because of Islam. No. Be proud, act upon it. Be a real Muslim. If you really believe in a Hereafter and you really believe in a Creator, then you want to do everything for this religion. In the most positive sense, of course. So that's that's what we should do. And if we do that, you will rise again. We know that Islamophobia is rising in the world. How do you think we can deal with this issue? Well, I think there are two ways.
One is just live as a Muslim, show good akhlaq in a way, and because most of the people in the beginning, in the old days, so to say, they were so impressed by what they saw. When you look at for example Indonesia, people who, merchants came by and they never talked about Islam in a way that other people should become Muslims, et cetera. They were just being Muslims. They were trading and the people over there were still Hindu back then. They said, "Wow, what is this?" "They have this beautiful concept, their belief in God, et cetera. They're clean, they're very honest." It's a beautiful something and they wanted to have this as well. And that's why they became Muslims.
So there was no real hardcore preaching or whatever. They just were looking at the akhlaq of those first Muslim people becoming... Ah, visiting Indonesia to trade. And I still think that's the best way. If people see all these horrible things on television and they're scared or they're ignorant or whatever, and they see good akhlaq from the Muslims, they will see, "Hey, what I see on TV, that's not the reality. When I look at the Muslims, that's what Islam is." And a lot of people don't read the Quran. They don't read hadiths. They read you and they read me. So let's be an open book and the best book they ever read. I think that's very important. And of course, the other part is education.
Show people, if they are interested, and they want to know more, then there have to be, of course, good people to show them what Islam is. To explain the core concepts and what Islam is. So I think there are two ways. Some Muslims say, "I'm someone who goes from home to work and work to home," or "I am a student," and they ask "How can I tell my circle about Islam?" Do you think they can spread this message as well? Yeah, of course everybody, all Muslims, should in a way invite people to Islam. And even if people are already Muslim, you can boost each other's iman. So I think you have to build each other up a little bit because it's a hard world we live in and it's not always fun.
And there's a lot of sorrow, and there's a lot of grief. But we have our comfort in Islam, of course. So if you are able to comfort people and to strengthen people and to boost their iman, it also gives satisfaction. Because if I have a very dull job, for example, I have to stamp all the day, but I have a colleague that is not a Muslim, but he has some questions. You can talk and then it's very fulfilling. So the fact that you are there at that specific moment, specific time, that has a reason. So nobody is here without a reason. So as long as you realize that you have a function in this world, you are placed here with the grace of Allah to do something, well, do something.
And do something for the religion. Brother Joram, thank you very much for this beautiful interview again, and I pray that you will serve this Ummah until your last breath. Likewise. For the second time, we tried really hard to make you sweaty, but we couldn't. - It's cold. + Maybe it's because you are a politician. Thank you for joining us. Well, thank you too. It was an honor again to be on the show, and I think you're doing great, great work. And Inshallah, you'll help spreading the true message of Islam, and show all these people, all these different kinds of Muslims, black, white, old, young, men, women, et cetera. So I think it is a great, great thing you do. Feel blessed.
Assalamu alaikum Brother Joram, thank you for accepting our invitation again. Our first interview with you had a huge viral impact with more than 4 million views now. Were you expecting such an interest, or were you surprised? Yeah, I was surprised. I didn't expect it to go viral. And 4 million views is of course a lot, so. But Alhamdulillah it's a good thing, I think, because perhaps it helped spreading the message, explain a little bit of why I converted, and especially what Islam is in a very basic way, because of course, I'm not a scholar, but perhaps it helped.
Can you share with us some of the feedback you received, either positive or negative, and which one was the most interesting for you? Well, there were like a dozen people who said, "Well, this was for me, this was the last push." So they took Shahadah. Yeah. So there are a few people that became Muslim, and not because of our interview, of course, but it helped because they literally said that was the last push. So yeah, that's I think a remarkable thing. And of course, there was some negative feedback as well. But that's normal, I think. But the most remarkable feedback came from a guy who was a Buddhist. It was very funny.
And he told me, "Well, I never looked into religion." He said, "I'm a Buddhist." And when you look at the core concepts of Buddhism, of course, in a way it's atheistic. Because goal, so to say, of Buddhism is to go to Nirvana, and that means you disappear in a way. And he said, "Well, I always found it, like, spiritual atheism." And of course, that's what he said. But he said, "That was the first time that I thought, well, perhaps there is something else, perhaps there is a Creator." And that was... And he was looking into... And he is one of the guys who took Shahada in the end. So it was very funny to hear from, in the Dutch context as very agnostic, very secular.
It has, let's say a historical Christian background. And then there's a Buddhist guy in the Netherlands who becomes a Muslim. Now let me ask some questions that are frequently asked by disbelievers. What would you say to a person who says that your Prophet plagiarized from the Old Testament and the New Testament and came up with the Quran? Yeah. No, that's really impossible. Of course, I looked into that argument as well, especially when I was like Islam-critic. But when you look at the the Quran, and the way it is constructed, it's almost impossible for someone, especially when you don't have a computer, to make sure that there is, like, unity in it.
And there is a lot of unity whether people believe it or not. Even very skeptic people from the Western tradition, even the Eastern tradition. And I'm not talking about Muslim countries. They say that it is a remarkable book. So for someone who didn't have a computer, who was illiterate in a way, it is impossible to create something like that. If He did, it is a miracle on its own. But when it comes to people who say He copied stuff like that, well, the New Testament, for example, wasn't there yet. There was no New Testament, it wasn't translated into Arabic. And if he really was illiterate, how could he know?
And if there were perhaps 2 or 3 people telling him some stories about Christianity? There is so much deep theological stuff in the Quran related to Christianity. That's impossible because, again, there was no New Testament then, so he couldn't copy it at all. It was impossible. I always see, like, when I look at Christianity, I always see it as a book with a lot of truth, but not the complete truth. So when I look at, for example, the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Quran, and I put it next to it, it's like a puzzle. So where I miss some things, and things are a little bit changed in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
And when Islam came with the Quran, it corrected the first two revelations, so to say. So it completed my religion. And it's of course, it's in the Quran itself. "Today I completed your religion." But also when you look at it from a theological perspective, even from Christianity, as an ex-Christian, of course, I think that counts. So that's true. And the part of Jesus, Isa (as) he is, of course, in Christianity, a very core person. He is almost the central figure. But he is not absent in Islam. Because some people ask me, "Why do you left the team of Jesus?" It was really a question. And I told them, "Well, I didn't left the team of Jesus.
Jesus is in our team as well." So but it's, for a lot of Christians, it's very hard to accept that after Jesus there was someone else. And if people do accept that, then it's very easy for them to become Muslim. They also wonder about Sharia. Generally, they only think of some really harsh punishments, like the ones they see in the media. Is Sharia really the same thing that most people think of? If not, what is Sharia? Well, of course I'm not a scholar, but what I know, well... When I read and learned about Sharia. They say, "Well, it's a doctrine of religious duties." And it's very broad. It has to do with clothing, it has to do with food. It has to do with praying.
It has to do with trade. It has to do with everything and of course, there's this small part that has to do with criminal justice as well. But in the West, and it has to do with the propaganda from way back, like we talked about it, in the 16th and 17th century. But up till this day people are saying, "Well, Sharia is this, that." No, that's not Sharia. It's very, very small part of Sharia. But that is because Islam is a holistic concept. So it doesn't talk only about the way of the heart. It's a practical religion. It really fits life here on earth in the dunya. So what it means is that we have to talk about all these aspects, all these segments of the dunya as well.
And criminal justice is a part of it. And a lot of people in the West often say to me, "Well, they don't really punish people." We have people here who committed rape, for example. They only get one year in prison. One year. And I can imagine, as a father, if my daughter was raped, I don't want this guy to be punished one year. I want a severe punishment, a real punishment. And when I look at other systems, of course, there are stronger punishments. But that's not what Sharia is about, and again, you have this concept of Shubuhat, I think, so before someone really is punished in that way, there are so many factors, so many restrictions, that it's almost impossible.
So most of the time it's only to make sure that people understand this is a very big offensive thing that you are about to do or that you did. But in the West, they don't see it like that because they don't want to see Islam for what it is most of the time, especially people who do know Islam in the core, but they really don't want to be a Muslim. So they take these arguments and they twist it a little bit, and they make it seem very scary and stuff like that. But when you look at the Ottoman Empire for example, or apostasy, because that's something that a lot of people talk about, right? When you're an apostate, you get killed, et cetera.
When you compare that, for example, to America before it became the United States, there have been a lot of people who were killed there because they left their religion, because the church there or the state there said, "You're not a real Christian or we're doubting." Look at the Inquisition in Europe. They killed so many people, thousands and thousands of people. And when you compare this, for example, to the Ottoman Empire, in over the last 400 years of the Ottoman Empire, only three people were punished that way. Three. And when you compare that to the West, where thousands and thousands... But still the idea is Islam is scary and they kill everybody. And the West is sweet and nice.
No, that's not the real deal. That's not factual. It's not historical. But that has to do with propaganda, so... But that's another topic, I think. They also ask, "Why do we need laws from God to be ruled justly? Can't we find what is right and what is wrong on our own?" They also ask, "Why do we need laws from God to be ruled justly? Can't we find what is right and what is wrong on our own?" Yeah, it's almost a philosophical question. No, I don't think people can do that because people are very changeable.
And when you look at the history, and of course, I'm a Western guy, and I live in the West, when I look at the history of the West, the times that people thought they could do without a deity, without God, Allah, it didn't end up very well. When you look at, for example, the DDR, Eastern Germany, or when you look at the Soviet Union, for example, Russia. They had communism, and in communism the state religion was atheism. And there have been a lot of Ulama (scholars) who were killed there. Because of the fact that they were Muslim, and they were preaching religion and the belief in one God. They were killed, slaughtered in a horrible way. But also Christian monks.
There were a lot of people really killed. So if people say, "Well, religion always causes violence," well, look at the Soviet Union. They were explicitly not religious and they committed horrible crimes. Over 20 million of their own people were killed, let alone the other people. Even in Albania, and it used to be a Muslim country, of course, when they were under the communist Enver Hoxha, he killed a lot of people. In China, North Korea. There are there are so many contexts. And of course, sometimes things change, fortunately. But when you look at the idea of people ruling their selves without the guidance of God, that doesn't end up well.
Well, even when you look at the Second World War, when you look at Nazi Germany from 1939 till 1945. He ruled practically the continent of Europe, but there were so many people killed. There were even disabled people who were slaughtered in the most horrible ways. And they made their manmade rules. Well, that didn't end up very well for those people. So I think that the only security for mankind to be guided in the correct way, so that we can live in peace among each other, is the guidance of Allah, of God. Many non-Muslims in the West think that Islam restricts freedom, because we know that they are known for, and proud of a free lifestyle. Do you think this can bring happiness to humanity?
Well, I think Islam is freedom, because nobody is completely free. You're always a slave of something, slave of your money, or a slave of women, or a slave of good clothes, or a slave of whatever. Then at least be a slave of the truth. So... Real freedom. What is freedom? The fact that you can be drunk or that you can use drugs, or that you can commit zina or whatever. That's not real freedom. In the end, you will not end up happy. So... And that's like, also with little children. If I ask my child, what do you want to eat? She says candy. If I would give her candy all day, she would be sick and in the end, perhaps she will die.
Because she doesn't get any vitamins, she doesn't have normal vegetables, or proteins or whatever. So the fact that it seems fun doesn't mean that it is fun, and it doesn't mean that it will help you on the long run. So I think if you are a Muslim, just try to practice Islam. And I know a lot of people say, "When you are a Muslim, you cannot do this, that." You can do almost everything except for a few things. And the things that you are not allowed to do have to do with your well being. They say, "Don't drink alcohol, don't use drugs, don't do that." And it has a reason. It's not to bully you or to make you feel bad. No, it's to help you to make sure that you are a happy person.
If you're a Muslim, or even if you're not Muslim, if you're constantly using drugs or you're using other things like alcohol, or you're only going out, date, stuff, clubbing, whatever. Most of them, most of these people end up miserable if they are alone, because in the end, they are looking for a man or a woman and they want to have children. They want to marry. That's what most people want. But all these things are not going to help you create sustainable relations where happiness is the central focus point. Because in the end, I think we have, want to be what they call "The People of Sa'ada", right? You want to be happy, you want to be near to the Creator.
The only way that will bring you to that point is Islam. So yeah, I think people have to reconsider what real freedom is. The fact that that there are so many pop stars in history that were very rich, they had a lot of beautiful men or beautiful women. And they used drugs, they used alcohol. They did... A lot of those people committed suicide. And that's not because all these things were making them happy. Otherwise they would still be here. And of course, that doesn't count for everybody. But those people have everything in the extreme, and that's what a lot of people think, "If I have extreme freedom, I will do this, this." No, you won't.
And if you do, you won't end up the way you want to. So Islam is a balanced system, and it allows you to do almost everything except for the things that will make you miserable in the end. So just follow the instructions, so to say, and it will make you a happier person. And this instruction is called Islam. I have one last request. More than 4 million people watched your first video with us on YouTube, and nearly as many watched you on Instagram. Among those people, maybe thousands of them were non-Muslims. I want you to look directly at the camera and talk to them with a few words. They may have some hesitations about embracing Islam. What would you like to say to them? Briefly, please.
Why Islam? Why they shouldn't hesitate, looking directly at the camera. For all the people who are not Muslim yet, who are hesitating, whether you're agnostic, or atheist, or Christian, or Buddhist, or Hindu or whatever, it doesn't matter. I wish for all these people, for you at home as well of course, Islam. And not because I think you're a bad person or whatever. And I think that goes for most of the Muslims. It's not that Muslims think you're a bad person if they want to convey Islam to you. But only, like I said during the interview, Islam really gave me peace of heart and peace of mind. And a lot of people think, well, it's very hard to become a Muslim.
I have to pray five times, I cannot do this or that. I know from experience that it's not that hard. In the end, it made me happier. And if you really are dedicated and if you really follow the truth and if this is really what you believe, things go very easy. So, I would suggest and advise people to look into Islam. Study it objectively. Don't look at what the Muslims do. Look at what the ultimate teacher Muhammed, peace and blessings be upon him, did. And let Him, in a way, convince you of the truth of Islam. So how will Islam conquer the hearts of people in the world? What do you think is the way to achieve this? I think that's Truth, with a capital T. I don't think we have to do so much.
The only thing we have to do is convey the message. And I always think, and that's what we do here as well in our coming museum in the end, because it's the truth appeals to people. If something is true, you're attracted to this truth. That's what happened to me as well because I really, really didn't want to become a Muslim. I really didn't want. Even after I saw all the arguments, all the facts, I still didn't want to become a Muslim. But in the end, I ended up becoming a Muslim. Why didn't you want? It was like...
Like I said in the beginning, after I picked up the Quran and when it fell from the closet and it said, in Surah 22, this is Ayat 46, and it says "It's not the eyes that are blind, but the hearts." And that was really what my problem was. And I think that's a problem for a lot of people in the West, because it's not the problem of the eyes. You can see the arguments if you really want to see the arguments, if you want to see the facts, just look it up. They're there in front of you. So there's nothing wrong with your eyes. You're not blind, but you don't want to. And that's something else. It's a problem of the heart.
And it could be because you don't want to accept the fact that there is a Creator, or you just don't want to be a Muslim or whatever. It could be a lot of arguments, but it's not a problem of the mind, it's not... Rationally, Islam is very easy. It's more, are you really, really down? Are you really open to receive the message? So that's a problem of the heart. Nowadays people mostly think that Muslims are defeated and left behind. If Islam is the truth, why is that the case? If you see Islam, for example, as the sun that's up there shining, being beautiful, you cannot touch it, it's untouchable.
And if we as Muslims are living in a basement and we can say, "Where is Islam, where is Islam, we cannot see Islam," it's because we are in the basement. We should get out of the basement, walk into the garden, look up, and then we see Islam. And that goes for the other people as well. If it's a cloudy day because they have this cloudy perception, they don't see, it doesn't mean that there is no Islam. The Creator is there, Islam is there. It's up there. It's untouchable. It's beautiful. It doesn't matter what you say or do, it's still there. So Islam has never been defeated. It's there. And Muslims don't always live like Muslims. That's our responsibility.
I think if we did live like Muslims, you would still be on top, because in the end, you were once, of course, like, the ruling nation of the world, you taught a lot of people, you spread the truth. But in the end, people start arguing, stopped being real Muslims in a way. And then of course, that's how the world works. Then someone else comes. And so it's up to ourselves if we don't see Islam for what it is and we don't act upon it, then we can't complain. But that's our own responsibility, because I don't ever... I never saw, even when I was a very anti-Muslim politician. I never saw Islam as something to pity.
I saw it as a danger back then, but I still respected it in a way because of the fact that I saw it as a danger. But nowadays I see it as the truth, the ultimate Truth with a capital T, and it's the most beautiful thing. So you don't have to walk away or shy away because of Islam. No. Be proud, act upon it. Be a real Muslim. If you really believe in a Hereafter and you really believe in a Creator, then you want to do everything for this religion. In the most positive sense, of course. So that's that's what we should do. And if we do that, you will rise again. We know that Islamophobia is rising in the world. How do you think we can deal with this issue? Well, I think there are two ways.
One is just live as a Muslim, show good akhlaq in a way, and because most of the people in the beginning, in the old days, so to say, they were so impressed by what they saw. When you look at for example Indonesia, people who, merchants came by and they never talked about Islam in a way that other people should become Muslims, et cetera. They were just being Muslims. They were trading and the people over there were still Hindu back then. They said, "Wow, what is this?" "They have this beautiful concept, their belief in God, et cetera. They're clean, they're very honest." It's a beautiful something and they wanted to have this as well. And that's why they became Muslims.
So there was no real hardcore preaching or whatever. They just were looking at the akhlaq of those first Muslim people becoming... Ah, visiting Indonesia to trade. And I still think that's the best way. If people see all these horrible things on television and they're scared or they're ignorant or whatever, and they see good akhlaq from the Muslims, they will see, "Hey, what I see on TV, that's not the reality. When I look at the Muslims, that's what Islam is." And a lot of people don't read the Quran. They don't read hadiths. They read you and they read me. So let's be an open book and the best book they ever read. I think that's very important. And of course, the other part is education.
Show people, if they are interested, and they want to know more, then there have to be, of course, good people to show them what Islam is. To explain the core concepts and what Islam is. So I think there are two ways. Some Muslims say, "I'm someone who goes from home to work and work to home," or "I am a student," and they ask "How can I tell my circle about Islam?" Do you think they can spread this message as well? Yeah, of course everybody, all Muslims, should in a way invite people to Islam. And even if people are already Muslim, you can boost each other's iman. So I think you have to build each other up a little bit because it's a hard world we live in and it's not always fun.
And there's a lot of sorrow, and there's a lot of grief. But we have our comfort in Islam, of course. So if you are able to comfort people and to strengthen people and to boost their iman, it also gives satisfaction. Because if I have a very dull job, for example, I have to stamp all the day, but I have a colleague that is not a Muslim, but he has some questions. You can talk and then it's very fulfilling. So the fact that you are there at that specific moment, specific time, that has a reason. So nobody is here without a reason. So as long as you realize that you have a function in this world, you are placed here with the grace of Allah to do something, well, do something.
And do something for the religion. Brother Joram, thank you very much for this beautiful interview again, and I pray that you will serve this Ummah until your last breath. Likewise. For the second time, we tried really hard to make you sweaty, but we couldn't. - It's cold. + Maybe it's because you are a politician. Thank you for joining us. Well, thank you too. It was an honor again to be on the show, and I think you're doing great, great work. And Inshallah, you'll help spreading the true message of Islam, and show all these people, all these different kinds of Muslims, black, white, old, young, men, women, et cetera. So I think it is a great, great thing you do. Feel blessed.