Ex-Muslim vs Muslim - Debate in Istanbul
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I've read the Quran from beginning to end, twice. and then one day, while I was sleeping, I said: What do I believe? Isn't alcohol haram in this world? Then why are there rivers of wine in Jannah? Brother, a 5-year-old kid, is being raped and murdered. Okay, you rewarded the baby and sent her to Heaven, but what about the ones who stayed here? Tell me, what's the kid's fault at this point? It's rape, brother! It's rape! All this mess... Seeing people suffering, little girls being raped at such a young age and dying, it all put me off my religion, and from being a man. You're allowed to have 3-4 wives. I mean... Whatever you have to say can't make me accept this, no. 1, 2, 3 and 4...
After answering these questions, was there any change in your opinion? Hello. Hi brother, what are you up to? Well... I'm working. We were just taking a walk here, with my friend. What about you? You guys are together, I guess. What was your faith? My faith... I believe that there is a Creator, but I don't believe the rest of it. When did you first start thinking this way? Were you a Muslim, before? I've read the Quran from beginning to end, twice until I was 17. I never missed a Friday prayer until I was 17. One day, I saw something on the news. On the bottom floor of a five-floor apartment, there was a family with three children. and that building collapsed.
2 kids at the bottom floor died. and then I thought if we live in a Muslim society, if our God is merciful, then why does He let these kids die like this? Why does God let them die, buried under wreckage? So you’re asking: If God is merciful? Firstly, what do we do about death? It feels like there is unfairness when someone dies. Although if we saw death as a door opening to eternal life, Islam says that too, then death is only a ticket for you to pass through that door. When the kid dies, no matter how the kid dies, what happens? The child goes to Heaven. What does Allah do to the baby? Rewards him with Heaven. Does the kid know about this situation? The child doesn’t even know.
So, in the case of a death that is rewarded with Heaven... can we say anything like why did the kid die? why did he die horribly? Going to Heaven is already a gift for the baby. What about people dying in pain, then? Brother, think about your worst nightmare then, okay? Think about the worst one. Let's say you feel like that dream goes on for 80 years. Your most painful dream... When you wake up after the dream, aren't you able to forget it with just one glass of water? You easily forget it. Just like this, let's say we've had a terrible, painful life in this world. Our death might have been seemingly difficult.
But we say, If a sad dream that felt as though it lasted 80 years is forgotten with a glass of water how can the short time of death not be forgotten, after going to Heaven eternally. How is it not compensated for? How can an eternal blessing not make up for it? You know what we're doing? We're looking at things as they seem. Superficially. But when you think about it, behind everything you see Is a bigger picture. There can be so much more blessing than we see. Brother, a 5-year-old kid, is being raped and murdered. Okay, you rewarded the child by gifting Heaven, but then, the real punishment begins for the ones that are left behind. Who are the ones being punished? Mom and dad. Exactly.
The family of the 5-year-old… - They're the ones that suffer. Of course, they're the ones that suffer! What's the reason behind this child's death? It's rape, brother! It's rape! All this mess... people suffering, little girls being raped at such a young age and dying, it all put me off my religion plus my manhood after seeing all these men doing these things. “The creation of evil is not evil; the acquisition of evil is evil." Which means... Let's say we invented a knife, okay? Why do we invent the knife, so that people can benefit from it, right? Now let's say someone used this knife to stab someone and killed them.
Now can you say, "You, inventing this knife, is evil?" No brother, it’s how you used it, which is evil. Correct? And I'm saying it's not evil for Allah to create something. For example, He created a man, and He created free will, and created compatibility with the opposite sex. He created sexuality. He created sexual intercourse. God's creation of man, his will, giving him power and giving this desire is not evil. Just because someone evilly used this, you know, because someone came and stabbed someone with that knife, we can't say that the creator is creating evil. We can't say that God is being evil here. If we talk about the weight of that family's burden...
As we said, everyone is in a test. Some people are in the test of patience, some in the test of gratitude, And some of them are in various trials about family matters. The purpose of the existence of this world is to test people with these feelings and trials. But like we said, even when you wake up from a dream that you feel has been going on for years, if a glass of water erases all your pain, when we wake up in Heaven, all the pain we suffered in the world will be erased too. Let's say a doctor harms a thousand patients in the operating room. Now, are we vilifying medical science here? No. We do, when it's necessary. No, I mean, are we slandering medical science and medical books?
No, not the books. Here, it's the doctor's fault. I don’t just look at this situation and say "All doctors are bad." Similarly, if we criticize the religion of Islam by looking at people's mistakes, this would not be the right approach. Yes, people are wrong. I get angry too, but you know what? I am taking steps to rectify this situation. What matters is what steps you, I, and we take to fix these evildoings. We run around to find out how to inform people. Otherwise, if we become like the man who turns away from the medical books, then we would not be of any use, nor would we have taken the right approach.
Yes, there are deaths, but as we said, “The acquisition of evil is evil, but the creation of evil is not evil." For example, because God gave you free will, you can inform people about doing good, right? Because God has made us human and gave us will. Since God gives such a blessing, we can provide people with something in return, and inform them in the direction of kindness. Can we call this evil? God, giving us this ability? No we can't. No, we can't. Now a person comes and goes and uses this blessing given by Allah to kill and injure people. So our concern should be; how will we reach out to these people and how will we deliver accurate information to them?
Otherwise, as we said, if we directly associate this with Islam, we would be at odds with the knowledge of the Qur'an. Doesn't the Qur'an say the opposite? The Quran says the opposite. If a person is doing this, it means that they have not followed the Qur'an. For example, isn't alcohol haram in this world? So why are there rivers of wine in Heaven? The issue of haram and halal originates from Allah calling it bad or good. For example, if Allah says something is haram, it is haram. If He says it’s halal, it’s halal. So, it's not related to it being bad or good. Since we're on the testing field and are in a universe, we must use our minds. Because look, we are making an inference here.
We are trying to find Allah, right? Allah calls that bad in this world. Then what about Heaven? Since Allah does not say something is haram, it’s not haram there. Of course, Allah will say some things are haram, and some are halal. You will go to Heaven or Hell based on your choices. This is required in this place. It's a test venue. Is there such a test in Heaven? There are no tests in Heaven. If Allah already determines whether something is good or bad, it is not surprising that God made wine halal there. You are no longer in a trial there. Right? You can have 3-4 wives right? No matter what you say to me, brother. No matter what rule of God or whatever you explain, I cannot accept it.
You can actually love someone else. After one relationship ends. But 1, 2, 3 and 4... Does the Qur'an require polygamy? No. In the verse it says: "You can marry up to 4." So it doesn't make it compulsory. It sets a limit of four. And he says: ..But if you fear that you will not be fair, then [marry only] one.. (An-Nisa, 4:3) Do you know what it says in the other verse? And you will never be able to be fair [in feeling] between wives, even if you should strive [to do so]... (An-Nisa, 4:129) So, what is it that the Qur’an is saying? The Qur'an tells you to marry one. Then to the next verse. What did the other verse say? "You can marry up to 4." And what's the point of this?
Brother, the Qur'an is a universal book. If such a situation occurs due to the circumstances, man is given this opportunity. Like what? World wars are breaking out, right? Who dies in world wars? Men or women? Usually men. Men are dying. What happens when men die? The women to men ratio increases. Do you know what happens in this situation? With this provision of the Qur'an, the family concept can continue. What did the Quran say? "You can marry up to 4." Already the Qur'an supports monogamy, but if circumstances require it, like in the case of a war, there is a limit of up to four women, so it is not forbidden and so that people can start a family and So they can return to normality again.
In other words, we should not forget that the Qur'an is universal. The religion of Islam and the Qur’an is suitable for and applies to every period, every circumstance and event. We spoke, tried to find answers together, we talked about verses of the Qur'an, etc. After answering these questions, has there been a change in your mind? Just one thing: You said kindness, and I said mercy. They mostly match. My point is... Brother what matters is humanity! Let's not lose our humanity. Seriously, we need humanity, especially during these times. Being a Muslim is great, honestly. Just like you said. It was a really genuine conversation.
Then if our opinions are mutual for the most part, your friend is already a Muslim too, what if you reverted to Islam and continued researching and questioning the Qur'an, and my team and I can help you through your research whenever you need it? Let me tell you this: By the way, it was a nice conversation. Thank you, I appreciate it. If anything I said came out wrong, forgive me. I'll do some research based on what you said. I promise. I'll do more detailed research on it. But I want to say one more thing: Let's not lose our humanity. No more kids, no more girls, no more women should die. This world is ours, you know. We're on the same page. Really nice to meet you both.
Nice to meet you too. It was a great conversation.
After answering these questions, was there any change in your opinion? Hello. Hi brother, what are you up to? Well... I'm working. We were just taking a walk here, with my friend. What about you? You guys are together, I guess. What was your faith? My faith... I believe that there is a Creator, but I don't believe the rest of it. When did you first start thinking this way? Were you a Muslim, before? I've read the Quran from beginning to end, twice until I was 17. I never missed a Friday prayer until I was 17. One day, I saw something on the news. On the bottom floor of a five-floor apartment, there was a family with three children. and that building collapsed.
2 kids at the bottom floor died. and then I thought if we live in a Muslim society, if our God is merciful, then why does He let these kids die like this? Why does God let them die, buried under wreckage? So you’re asking: If God is merciful? Firstly, what do we do about death? It feels like there is unfairness when someone dies. Although if we saw death as a door opening to eternal life, Islam says that too, then death is only a ticket for you to pass through that door. When the kid dies, no matter how the kid dies, what happens? The child goes to Heaven. What does Allah do to the baby? Rewards him with Heaven. Does the kid know about this situation? The child doesn’t even know.
So, in the case of a death that is rewarded with Heaven... can we say anything like why did the kid die? why did he die horribly? Going to Heaven is already a gift for the baby. What about people dying in pain, then? Brother, think about your worst nightmare then, okay? Think about the worst one. Let's say you feel like that dream goes on for 80 years. Your most painful dream... When you wake up after the dream, aren't you able to forget it with just one glass of water? You easily forget it. Just like this, let's say we've had a terrible, painful life in this world. Our death might have been seemingly difficult.
But we say, If a sad dream that felt as though it lasted 80 years is forgotten with a glass of water how can the short time of death not be forgotten, after going to Heaven eternally. How is it not compensated for? How can an eternal blessing not make up for it? You know what we're doing? We're looking at things as they seem. Superficially. But when you think about it, behind everything you see Is a bigger picture. There can be so much more blessing than we see. Brother, a 5-year-old kid, is being raped and murdered. Okay, you rewarded the child by gifting Heaven, but then, the real punishment begins for the ones that are left behind. Who are the ones being punished? Mom and dad. Exactly.
The family of the 5-year-old… - They're the ones that suffer. Of course, they're the ones that suffer! What's the reason behind this child's death? It's rape, brother! It's rape! All this mess... people suffering, little girls being raped at such a young age and dying, it all put me off my religion plus my manhood after seeing all these men doing these things. “The creation of evil is not evil; the acquisition of evil is evil." Which means... Let's say we invented a knife, okay? Why do we invent the knife, so that people can benefit from it, right? Now let's say someone used this knife to stab someone and killed them.
Now can you say, "You, inventing this knife, is evil?" No brother, it’s how you used it, which is evil. Correct? And I'm saying it's not evil for Allah to create something. For example, He created a man, and He created free will, and created compatibility with the opposite sex. He created sexuality. He created sexual intercourse. God's creation of man, his will, giving him power and giving this desire is not evil. Just because someone evilly used this, you know, because someone came and stabbed someone with that knife, we can't say that the creator is creating evil. We can't say that God is being evil here. If we talk about the weight of that family's burden...
As we said, everyone is in a test. Some people are in the test of patience, some in the test of gratitude, And some of them are in various trials about family matters. The purpose of the existence of this world is to test people with these feelings and trials. But like we said, even when you wake up from a dream that you feel has been going on for years, if a glass of water erases all your pain, when we wake up in Heaven, all the pain we suffered in the world will be erased too. Let's say a doctor harms a thousand patients in the operating room. Now, are we vilifying medical science here? No. We do, when it's necessary. No, I mean, are we slandering medical science and medical books?
No, not the books. Here, it's the doctor's fault. I don’t just look at this situation and say "All doctors are bad." Similarly, if we criticize the religion of Islam by looking at people's mistakes, this would not be the right approach. Yes, people are wrong. I get angry too, but you know what? I am taking steps to rectify this situation. What matters is what steps you, I, and we take to fix these evildoings. We run around to find out how to inform people. Otherwise, if we become like the man who turns away from the medical books, then we would not be of any use, nor would we have taken the right approach.
Yes, there are deaths, but as we said, “The acquisition of evil is evil, but the creation of evil is not evil." For example, because God gave you free will, you can inform people about doing good, right? Because God has made us human and gave us will. Since God gives such a blessing, we can provide people with something in return, and inform them in the direction of kindness. Can we call this evil? God, giving us this ability? No we can't. No, we can't. Now a person comes and goes and uses this blessing given by Allah to kill and injure people. So our concern should be; how will we reach out to these people and how will we deliver accurate information to them?
Otherwise, as we said, if we directly associate this with Islam, we would be at odds with the knowledge of the Qur'an. Doesn't the Qur'an say the opposite? The Quran says the opposite. If a person is doing this, it means that they have not followed the Qur'an. For example, isn't alcohol haram in this world? So why are there rivers of wine in Heaven? The issue of haram and halal originates from Allah calling it bad or good. For example, if Allah says something is haram, it is haram. If He says it’s halal, it’s halal. So, it's not related to it being bad or good. Since we're on the testing field and are in a universe, we must use our minds. Because look, we are making an inference here.
We are trying to find Allah, right? Allah calls that bad in this world. Then what about Heaven? Since Allah does not say something is haram, it’s not haram there. Of course, Allah will say some things are haram, and some are halal. You will go to Heaven or Hell based on your choices. This is required in this place. It's a test venue. Is there such a test in Heaven? There are no tests in Heaven. If Allah already determines whether something is good or bad, it is not surprising that God made wine halal there. You are no longer in a trial there. Right? You can have 3-4 wives right? No matter what you say to me, brother. No matter what rule of God or whatever you explain, I cannot accept it.
You can actually love someone else. After one relationship ends. But 1, 2, 3 and 4... Does the Qur'an require polygamy? No. In the verse it says: "You can marry up to 4." So it doesn't make it compulsory. It sets a limit of four. And he says: ..But if you fear that you will not be fair, then [marry only] one.. (An-Nisa, 4:3) Do you know what it says in the other verse? And you will never be able to be fair [in feeling] between wives, even if you should strive [to do so]... (An-Nisa, 4:129) So, what is it that the Qur’an is saying? The Qur'an tells you to marry one. Then to the next verse. What did the other verse say? "You can marry up to 4." And what's the point of this?
Brother, the Qur'an is a universal book. If such a situation occurs due to the circumstances, man is given this opportunity. Like what? World wars are breaking out, right? Who dies in world wars? Men or women? Usually men. Men are dying. What happens when men die? The women to men ratio increases. Do you know what happens in this situation? With this provision of the Qur'an, the family concept can continue. What did the Quran say? "You can marry up to 4." Already the Qur'an supports monogamy, but if circumstances require it, like in the case of a war, there is a limit of up to four women, so it is not forbidden and so that people can start a family and So they can return to normality again.
In other words, we should not forget that the Qur'an is universal. The religion of Islam and the Qur’an is suitable for and applies to every period, every circumstance and event. We spoke, tried to find answers together, we talked about verses of the Qur'an, etc. After answering these questions, has there been a change in your mind? Just one thing: You said kindness, and I said mercy. They mostly match. My point is... Brother what matters is humanity! Let's not lose our humanity. Seriously, we need humanity, especially during these times. Being a Muslim is great, honestly. Just like you said. It was a really genuine conversation.
Then if our opinions are mutual for the most part, your friend is already a Muslim too, what if you reverted to Islam and continued researching and questioning the Qur'an, and my team and I can help you through your research whenever you need it? Let me tell you this: By the way, it was a nice conversation. Thank you, I appreciate it. If anything I said came out wrong, forgive me. I'll do some research based on what you said. I promise. I'll do more detailed research on it. But I want to say one more thing: Let's not lose our humanity. No more kids, no more girls, no more women should die. This world is ours, you know. We're on the same page. Really nice to meet you both.
Nice to meet you too. It was a great conversation.